From a chance online encounter with a Mexican man to learning Spanish: Ramin NaserNasir on Latin American literature and why "Purgatory" feels familiar to Iranians

Actor and literary translator Ramin NaserNasir sees literature as a way to understand human experiences and historical wounds that cross geographic borders and recur across different societies. In an interview with Safir Arjan, he spoke about the unconventional path he took to learn Spanish and the parallels between the experiences of loss and disappearance in the novel "Purgatory" and Iran's historical experiences.

Narges Kayani - Ramin Nasser Nasir, actor and translator, was a guest of the cafe and talked about his latest translation, the novel "Purgatory" written by Thomas Alvey Martins, about the path that brought him from acting to the world of literature and translation; A path shaped by curiosity about languages, interest in literature and unexpected life experiences. In this interview, he talked about the first experiences of translating the play, working with Shahram Zargar, meeting a Mexican friend by chance in the internet chat space, and learning Spanish through poetry. An experience that led to the translation of works of Latin American literature. Nasser Nasir also pointed to his view on translation, emphasizing the necessity of knowing the world of the work and faithfulness to the spirit of the text instead of word-for-word translation, and he spoke about the difficulties of publishing some works and misunderstandings that have arisen during literary collaborations. Part of this conversation is dedicated to the novel "Purgatory" and the theme of the loss and disappearance of humans; A subject which, according to him, is connected with the historical wounds and collective experiences of the Iranian society.

If you agree, to start the conversation, I want to go back about two decades and talk about the early years of your activity in the field of translation before dealing with the most recent work that was published with your translation, "Purgatory" by Thomas Alvey Martineth. Your appearance in TV series began in 1372. So, naturally, until 1377, when Haideh Haeri, a collection of 6 plays by Neil Simon; The American playwright and screenwriter gave you and asked for one of the plays; Translate "Barefoot in the Park" to Farsi so that you can play the role of "Corey" (a passionate, lively, adventurous woman who is infatuated with new experiences) and leave the role of "Pavel" (her cautious, logical, dutiful and a little dry wife) to Khosrow Shekibai. Of course, Mrs. Haeri never performed that play, but you and Shahram Zargar, thanks to her, translated "Barefoot in the Park" and by the way, this favor became the basis for Shahram Zargar to later write 5 other plays of that English collection by Neil Simon; The famous comedian also translated the Broadway theater into Farsi.

Anyway, naturally, your familiarity with the English language and your interest in translation must have been formed before receiving Ms. Haeri's offer. So, if you agree, I would like to start the conversation by asking when did you start learning English and where and how did your interest in translation come from?

The things you mentioned are true, but in response to how exactly I started learning English, I cannot point to a specific time or mention a special event. I have always been very curious and still am; Curiosity about language regardless of what language it is. Maybe in this field, I have some talent and my ear is sensitive to language. For example, it has happened that I have traveled to a country and without necessarily intending to learn the language of that country, after a week or 10 days of stay, I have been able to learn some basic and everyday expressions. I have been able to do this to some extent even in the case of languages ​​such as Chinese or Polish, which phonetically are not easy languages ​​to imitate and reproduce by us Farsi speakers. Therefore, I can say that probably due to the sensitivity of the phone, it is relatively easy for me to imitate the sounds of different languages. However, I am more curious about the English language. As far as I can remember, since childhood, whenever I saw a sign in English on the street, I wondered what it was and what it meant, and I kept asking questions.

With this account, I can say that I actually learned English through a imperceptible and gradual process; Without realizing how exactly this happened. Of course, in order to learn English, I spent a very short period at the "Glory Institute"; An institution that was known for teaching English at that time. I think I attended maybe half a semester because I really didn't feel like going on. Basically, you know that direct language teaching can be very boring. UNESCO also deals with this issue in some parts of his plays. Of course, for a short period of time, I went to a class at Shkoweh Institute, which was one of the well-known English language schools at that time; But I did not complete even one semester. Teaching the language directly was boring for me. In addition, I found the speed of teaching in group classes to be slow. I always preferred to learn the language in a more indirect and interesting way, for example through playing games, watching movies or reading books that piqued my curiosity. Because of this, my learning was not systematic and academic, and later I had to fill some educational gaps in order to gain more mastery of the language. Definitely, traveling and socializing with English-speaking friends helped me learn the colloquial language better. However, there is a gap between the official language taught in school and the common language used in everyday conversations. These connections helped me to become familiar with the more natural use of the English language.

Before Ms. Haeri's suggestion, you apparently had translation experience, but not book translation.

Yes, before the 1377 semester and the story of Mrs. Haeri's proposal, I had experience in the field of translation. Of course, his suggestion was completely practical; The play "Barefoot in the Park" was supposed to be performed in the city theater and he suggested me to translate the play and then work on it together. Ms. Haeri was my professor at the university and in addition to attending her classes, I also had the experience of collaborating with her in the field of theater and performance. Of course, this cooperation did not come to fruition for some reasons. Until then, I had not yet published an independent book, but I had translated a number of articles, mainly in the field of theatre, including on the history of theater and approaches to directing in the 20th century. These articles were published in specialized theater magazines as well as cultural magazines. Accordingly, Mrs. Heidi made this proposal, although they themselves had a perfect command of the English language.

Therefore, his proposal was not so surprising for me; Because gradually and over time, I had gained experience in the field of translation and this path was not unfamiliar to me. Even before that, we had worked on short plays in collaboration with Mrs. Haeri, and we had translated parts of some works and worked on them. However, I had not published an independent book until then. In addition, the goal of translating the play "Barefoot in the Park" was not to publish the book at first, but we intended to translate the text for performance and continue to work on it. In fact, we did not do this translation with the aim of publishing the book, but we translated it together with Mr. Shahram Zargar. The experience of working with him was a sweet and enjoyable experience and this made us decide to continue this collaboration.

Considering that Shahram Zargar became one of the most famous translators of the works of this popular author in Iran by continuing to translate the works of Neil Simon, in addition to the plays he translated, but apparently you did not feel the need to insist on this path (translating the works of Neil Simon as an American comedian popular with Iranian theater directors).

The atmosphere of this play was very attractive, especially for Mr. Shahram Zargar. Of course, I also believe that the play is very well-made and attractive; However, I must say that my personal taste in theater is somewhat different. I don't mean that this work is not attractive, but the type and genre of plays that are more attractive to me are different.

For example, plays that can be made into movies, or even recreated in the form of short or long stories, are not very compatible with my theatrical taste. Of course, Mr. Neil Simon's works are interesting examples in this regard; Many of his works have been turned into films and successful films have also been made from them.

What I meant more was that it seems that Simon's works could provide a suitable platform for a translator to be recognized; Because his works have a wide audience and their ability to be performed and published can help the translator to be seen. However, instead of following this path, you chose to make your choices based on your personal tastes and concerns.

Yes, exactly. Earlier, in the short conversation we had before the start of this interview, I mentioned that mastery of the source language and the target language, although necessary for translation, is not enough by itself. In my opinion, another basic condition is that the translator engages with the world of the work; He should know its concerns, be familiar with its nuances and be able to deal with it with all his heart. If such a connection is not formed between the translator and the work, I think that eventually something will be lacking in the work.

Neil Simon's works did not find such a place for me; That is, I could not turn them into a personal concern and get involved with their world so much that I want to continue the path of their translation.

On the other hand, my aim in translating the book was not simply to select a work that, by virtue of its author's reputation, was more likely to be published or staged. Just as we knew about the play "Ah, father, poor father, mother has hung you in the closet and I am very sad" that the work probably does not have much capacity to be performed in Iran, but we had other motivations to translate it. In fact, for me, the value of a translation does not necessarily depend on how much the book sells, the number of prints, or the possibility of its implementation; Sometimes the importance of a work is that it can expand our knowledge of an artistic movement or answer a question that is important to us.

I think we translated the play "The Architect and the Emperor of Assyria" around 1379 or 1380, but we finally published it last year after more than twenty years of delay. The publication of this work was delayed for several reasons, including auditing issues. Finally, the book was published with a slight change in the title, under the name "Mehraz and Shah Ashur".

This work, in fact, was the third and last collaboration between me and Mr. Shahram Zargar.

Did you ever know the reason for the delay of more than two decades in the publication of "Architect and Emperor of Assyria"?

I think there was a more important factor in delaying the publication of the play "The Architect and the Emperor of Assyria". At that time, the fatwa related to Salman Rushdie had been issued and a group of writers had published a statement in opposition to it, in which Fernando Arabal was one of the prominent signatories. Therefore, in addition to auditing issues, political considerations were also added to the problems of publishing his works in Iran. Even the reprinting of Arabal's plays, despite the fact that some of them had been published in Iran before, faced the problem of obtaining permission for a while.

Over time, conditions changed and other issues and priorities were raised; As a result, those previous issues gradually became less important and Arabal's works were once again published. We translated the play around 1379 or 1380, but the book was finally published in 1403, more than two decades later.

Although you have talked about this before, I think it is still possible to talk about your collaboration with Mr. Jose Guadalupe Jimenez Crowe, a translator whose name is unknown to many Iranian audiences. Works such as "It's not a bird, the tree sings", "Symphony in a bottle" and "Bat and bread and onion" as well as the collection of "Mexican proverbs" were the result of these collaborations. The interesting thing is that getting to know this author's works, in addition to translation experience, also provided you with the opportunity to learn a new language.

Yes, I will try to summarize the story as much as possible, because it has a rather detailed story.

As I mentioned earlier, language learning has always been attractive to me; Both through formal classes and informal ways. I had tried to learn different languages, including French and Italian. However, I had less thought about learning Spanish; Maybe because it seemed a more special language and at that point, I didn't have a specific motivation to learn it.

But this happened completely by accident. Of course, I believe that the events that happen in our lives can sometimes be meaningful. In my opinion, if we pay attention to the events around us with such a view, we may see signs in some of them that will lead us to new directions. Sometimes a simple event can open the door to a completely different experience. The story of my acquaintance with the Spanish language was also of the same kind.

This story goes back to around 2011 or 2012; When Yahoo Messenger and Internet chat rooms were very popular and we spent a lot of time in those spaces. I, among other things, entered the chat rooms with the motivation to practice my English and not let it be forgotten, learn new things and meet people from other parts of the world. I was interested to know how a person lives in another corner of the world, what kind of culture he has and how he looks at the world.

At that time, I traveled a lot and always wanted to travel to Egypt; A wish that has not come true for me even today and is still one of my wishes.

One day, while I was aimlessly on Yahoo Messenger, I entered a chat room that, as far as I can remember, was about music. During that period, due to the not so good relations between Iran and Egypt, the travel of Iranian citizens to Egypt was limited and they usually needed an invitation or an invitation to an event or festival to travel.

In the same atmosphere of the conversation, this simple but very serious thought came to my mind that maybe I could meet an Egyptian person who would one day invite me to his country. In fact, without any special planning and just as a passing thought, I had raised such a possibility in my mind. At that time, I had no idea that this seemingly aimless presence in an Internet chat room would lead to acquaintances that would later shape a new direction in my life.

In fact, since I was just passing the time, I thought to myself it wouldn't hurt to see if I could find someone Egyptian too. Naturally, I first looked for names that sounded Arabic among the user IDs, so that I might be able to determine whether the owner was Egyptian or not. In the meantime, an identifier caught my attention, which seemed to me to be Arabic: "Alkitran-13 MG" or something like that. I sent him a message and asked if he is Egyptian or from another Arab country. He replied that he was Mexican and asked me who I was. I also introduced myself and said that I am Iranian.

The reality was that at that time, my information about Mexico was very limited; Maybe to the extent of things like Emiliano Zapata and cacti in the deserts of Mexico! However, Mexico was an intriguing country for me, as was Iran. Anyway, Iran has always been in the center of attention of the international media for years. However, unfortunately, the image presented in many media has mostly been associated with negative news. On the other hand, Mexicans were more or less familiar with news and narratives related to Iran due to their neighborhood with the United States and being influenced by the American media environment.

He asked me about Iran and what he had heard, and I was also curious about Mexico. In this way, a conversation took place that lasted about fifteen to thirty minutes. In the end, one of us suggested that we add each other to our friends list on Yahoo Messenger so that we can talk to each other in the future. Back then, it was possible to add people to your friends list and reconnect with them later. Finally, we both agreed and added each other to our friends list.

The interesting thing was that, despite the large time difference between Iran and Mexico, the times we were on the Internet overlapped to some extent. Usually, he was online late at night Iran time, which was morning in Mexico. Due to his work conditions, he was often in the office environment and his computer was on. So, when I logged into Yahoo Messenger, I sometimes saw that he was online too. Our relationship started with the usual greetings, but gradually and without having a specific plan, a friendship was formed between us.

What accelerated this friendship was the many similarities between our spirits and lifestyles. Our social conditions, family relationships and even our sense of humor were very similar. This cultural proximity made us feel close to each other very soon; So that within a month or two, we had almost learned about the details of each other's lives and families.

He even introduced me to his family. I remember once a birthday party was held in their family. He took his computer to the venue of the celebration and, using a webcam, shared me in the ceremony as well. In this way, what was initially just a casual conversation on the internet gradually turned into a close friendship and a relationship beyond a virtual acquaintance.

It seemed to me that now that we talk to each other for about half an hour to an hour every day, it is better that this communication is useful. On the other hand, after a while, the common topics and questions we had about each other were somewhat limited. Therefore, I suggested that we teach each other the language. As I mentioned earlier, direct and purely educational language learning is a bit boring for me. For this reason, I preferred to do it through a topic that would appeal to both of us.

I asked him what he was interested in and when he said poetry, I suggested that we read famous Mexican poems together and that he teach me Spanish through these poems. He also accepted this proposal and we started the work in the same way.

In Mexico, there is a literary prize called the Agustin Escalante Prize, which is awarded every year to the best poetry collection published during that year. This award started in 1968. My friend prepared thirty books that won this award between 1968 and 1998 and we started reading them.

In this way, through reading and translating poems, I learned new vocabulary and became familiar with the grammatical structures of the Spanish language. In fact, poetry had become a tool for me to learn the language; A method that was both attractive and compatible with my mood and interests.

Can we say that another thing that made this experience interesting for you was the significant differences between the poetic culture of Mexico and ours?

Yes, some poems were very strange to me and others had a certain beauty that aroused my curiosity. I chose the poems that caught my attention the most or were beautiful in my opinion, and I tried to translate their original text myself. Then I jotted down my translations, without at the time having a clear goal of publishing them.